Category: philosophy/religion topics
If god is all powerful can he create a rock even he cannot lift?
yes he can. he can create it, he just can't lift it.
prove it
prove it
or, more intersetingly, if God is all powerful and all wise can he prove to the world tht he does not exist.
my thing is if he can creat it but not lift it then he is not all powerful because there is something he cannot do. If he cannot create it then he is not all powerful because he cannot create it.
yeap, I see what you mean df ;) you just proved that God cannot be all powerful. ;) Or any entity for that matter.
Oh, he is still all powerful because he made it so he couldn't lift the rock. It's not that the rock is by itself unliftable, it's that god made it unliftable. Hah. :-)
Oh, he is still all powerful because he made it so he couldn't lift the rock. It's not that the rock is by itself unliftable, it's that god made it unliftable. Hah. :-)
well if he doesn't exist then of course he can't prove that he doesn't exist, but if he does exist then he should be able to prove that he does exist, so if he can't prove that he exists, maybe it means he doesn't exist.
Good point, SugarBaby. Actually, that is one of my main reasons for now believing in God. Well, I am the proverbial lost sheep, so why doesn't he reveal himself to me in a way that would force me to believe in him,
*if* he does want me to believe? Of course there are many answers that could be made to this: Someone could say that he *does* reveal himself, I just can't read the signs. Well, then give me better signs, please :-). The other objection is that of course this only excludes the all-knowing, all-powerful pseudo-Christian God, and not "thinner" versions of God, such as the prime mover. That objection I accept and I'd answer that, well, I'd be much more easily convinced to believe in something/someone like that. Either way, I just think that our Judeo-Christian conception must be false because it is either unpersuasive because it doesn't fit the facts, or downright logically impossible.
My reason for *not* believing in God. Wow... talk about a Freudian slip! :-)
Well, if you got the proof of something then belief goes away. If you know that the earth is spherical because you saw a satellite picturre there is no heated e debates or arguments or belief in that fact any more, it's a fact and it takes away all passion and/or conviction behind it, very few people would argue about whether a rock could break ordinary glass,, it's a given fact and can be tested out, rather expensively, at the next availible window, if people so desire.
And if God, (if he/she does exist of course) wants to give people a true choice, between good and evil, a chance to show what their nature is or how strong their belief is, which is the Christian way of thinking, he/she mustn't reveal himself (sorry ;) I' giving up on the gender thing for now) since at that point people will act in accordance with the relegious rules, not out of belief but out of sense of duty. I realize thisis not a fully fledged thought process yet so I must post to this later but I think this is a very important element in the whole scheme of things ,grin>
Do we ever have free choice or free will. If this is an all knowing god, the idea that he knows what you will do before you do it means that you have not choice, it is already pre determined. If not that tat would suppose that god is wrong because you did not do that which he thought you would. Better still not thought you would but knew you would. If got wanted you to believe and he is all powerful why not make you believe? It would seem to me that a being that is all powerful and knows what you will do before you do it, doesn't give a person a freewill.
Yes, B, that is a good point. It's very true that belief in itself is a very powerful thing, and knowledge of something you already believed in eclipses the believe. So for believers, yes, your analysis works. But what about those who, even if they try or are willing, at least, cannot manage to believe, since no one chooses what they do and don't believe? Shouldn't a merciful god reveal himself to even these lost souls in a way that will convince them? You are right, *if* god wants to give people a choice between good and evil, he must not reveal himself. But why might he want to give us this choice? Why not give us all the chance to chose "good" (by the way, I am not exactly convinced of this equation of belief and goodness, as opposed to disbelief and evil... though I realize--or at least hope :-)--they are not your own, from Christian Ethics. As a corollary, I also don't believe that belief and acting with or against Christan rules are very tightly connected--I'm an atheist (not by choice, really, simply because belief doesn't "click" with me), but I still very much follow Christian rules because they undoubtedly are a good code of Ethics. But yeah, I do take your point that to enable people to make a choice, god must not reveal himself. What I doubt is that (a) we have a choice, (b) it's all that kind of leave us a choice in the matter, and (c) what the choice actually is. Time to develop that thought process *grin*. Sorry if I'm being annoying here with my bullet points and my rambling :-), but I really find these kinds of dicussions interesting *smile*.
Wait, Dragonfire, this doesn't necessarily follow. Ok, so God might know that you will permit action A instead of action B at time T, but that doesn't mean that you didn't have a choice, Perhaps he simply already knows that you will make choice A, but he only knows that because *you* are going to make the choice. See, there is a big difference in knowing what is going to happen and predetermination. In the first case, you are the agent who makes the decision, and god is merely a "spectator", albeit one who can see into the future. In predermination in the sense of not having a choice, someone else--presumably god--decides what you will do, and *you* are the spectator, in a sense, or the puppet :-). Hence, an all-knowing god doesn't mean no free will. Does that make sense or am I confusing everbody? :-) Incidentally, I personally don't believe there is such a thing as genuine free will, but that is a whole other and incredibly technical discussion, so I'll spare you the details :-).
Wait, Dragonfire, this doesn't necessarily follow. Ok, so God might know that you will permit action A instead of action B at time T, but that doesn't mean that you didn't have a choice, Perhaps he simply already knows that you will make choice A, but he only knows that because *you* are going to make the choice. See, there is a big difference in knowing what is going to happen and predetermination. In the first case, you are the agent who makes the decision, and god is merely a "spectator", albeit one who can see into the future. In predermination in the sense of not having a choice, someone else--presumably god--decides what you will do, and *you* are the spectator, in a sense, or the puppet :-). Hence, an all-knowing god doesn't mean no free will. Does that make sense or am I confusing everbody? :-) Incidentally, I personally don't believe there is such a thing as genuine free will, but that is a whole other and incredibly technical discussion, so I'll spare you the details :-).
It's like giving a three-year-old the choice between the carrotsticks or the chocolate bar. Which do you think the kid's gonna go for--the veggie or the candy? You are pretty sure the child's going to choose the candy, 'cause I mean, come on! What child doesn't like candy? This is how I think God is. He knows what we will do--the decisions we will make and all that. Just because he already knows what we're going to do doesn't mean we don't have free will. He doesn't stop us from making our own choices.
God is all knowing right? For him time is not liner. Do you have a choice if there is someone who knows what it is your going to do? The parent and child thing that Alley was talking about. You can assme that the child will take the candy and not the carrot. But that is not knowing something that is assumeing. God is all knowing right? What after is free will if someone knows what your going to do then you have no choice but to do it or god would be wrong. You say your free because he doesn't control you to make the choice that you made, but you had to make that choice or god would be wrong. God is never wrong.
Wierd topic...
Allie is saying that God knows what choice you are going to make before you make it. Its not a matter of him controling your choices.
If he wanted to control your choices, then you wouldn't get much to choose from to begin with.
I agree, Allie. I do think he can create such a rock. I mean, Goblin, of course you can't prove it, but those who believe in god, believe it.
How do you know he created the rock? and How do you know he can't lift it? If he keep the whole planet Earth suspended with all the rocks on it, do you still believe he can't lift the rock? Do you see the tree but not the forest? Instead of looking at the rock, look at the planet that the rock is on. Is anything holding it up? A rope? a chain? Nope! So I guess one could say that god is lifting the rock and the planet that the rock is on for that matter. It all depends how you look at things. Cheers. Star
Well, If he's all powerful, can I ask you? How can he create something he can not lift? He could lift anything no matter how difficult it is. Also, why would he prove that he wouldn't exist if he does? It's like me proving that I am dead.
If you exist, how can you prove that you do not? It's illogical. The Gods can create anything they want. As for the rock that they can't lift, I take this metaphorically and say that it's Death and The Fates. Death because although The gods can kill, they can't restore one to life in the same form as before. If they could, I've never heard of such a thing. For example, they can kill a man but can't restore him to the form of a man, perhaps of a tree or a flower. This all relates to The Fates. Those three even The Gods cannot control entirely, though they can intervene at times. They're older than the Olympians, though Zeus (the king of all The Gods) is their leader. In some accounts, they came from The Titans, making them older than the Olympians, and in others, they came from Zeus. Either way, they came from Gods. Mortal and immortal alike must submit to their will, though there is room for free will. Even The Gods feare The Fates. So they are the rock that cannot be lifted. As for The Gods revealing themselves, while it is true that they no longer walk the Earth as they did in epic times, I do believe they're still here and, as in ancient times, they can change their forms. For all I know, the next person with whom I speak could be a god or goddess. They don't need to prove to us that they exist because we don't exist to serve them and they don't need to do anything for us. As for free will, while The Fates do exist, I do believe we have the ability to make our own decisions. It's not as if they decide everything for us. So though something, like me being blind, may be ascribed to The Fates because I had no control over it, something like me learning Greek is strictly up to me because I'm taking the iniciative to do so. But even we have this interesting argument of spectator versus predetermination. Take The Oddyssey, one of many stories in which men choose not to follow The Gods. Odysseus was told what he and his men should and should not do. he, being loyal and pius, didn't do these things, but his men did and were punished. Did The Gods know about these things? Of course they did, though they still tried to help in a few situations. That's usually why oracles work the way they do. They give us answers that aren't clear and it's up to us as the receivers, or to the person doing the oracular work, to determine their meaning. So sometimes, the lines are fuzzy.
I could agree to some of it to a certain point, but others, not so much.